"It's not going to be a smooth ride, but we can win" Benjamin Pestieau, Deputy General Secretary of the PVDA-PTB, talks about the social struggle in Belgium

The October 14 demonstration was the largest and most impressive in Belgium this century. "The demonstration of the 140,000", as Benjamin Pestieau calls it, gave rise to an intense media battle between on the one hand the defenders of the right and employers, and the labour camp on the other. Analysing the mobilisation in its entirety, and understanding its relation to the trade union plan launched a year ago, the PVDA-PTB Deputy General Secretary sees opportunities for making the government back down... if we wage the battle of ideas and stay mobilised and organised. Explanations.

The right reacted by downplaying the number of participants, but also by asserting that the reforms would be carried out whatever the cost, and by claiming to be listening to the "signal" of the people who didn't take to the streets. How do you interpret these manipulations?

Benjamin Pestieau. They tried to overturn the successful outcome of the demonstration with four clear ploys. The first was to minimalise the number of participants. The second, totally absurd, was proclaiming that Belgians who did not go and demonstrate, supported the government. In reality, these 140,000 demonstrators are the political representatives of a ground swell of rejection of Arizona's measures, as all the polls attest. The third ploy the used, was to declare that it won't help and that the measures will pass anyway. Finally, the fourth one was to manipulate certain incidents to divert from the core of the debate and justify increased repression against social mobilisation.

You have emphasised the historic nature of this mobilisation, not only in terms of its scale, but also in terms of its diversity. What sort of people, sectors and backgrounds have you been able to identify?

Benjamin Pestieau. All sectors were present. In addition to the highly unionised sectors, e.g. the industry, a lot of sectors that are usually less mobilised, such as services and the non-profit sector, were also in the streets. There were an enormous amount of teachers from both the north and the south of the country, as well as a lot of youth and early childhood workers.

A key element is the massive amount of young people: schoolchildren, students and young workers took to the streets in great numbers. This new generation refuses to watch from the sidelines and wants to play an active role in its own future. They reject the government's narrative that it is fighting for them while at the same time making their future more precarious (increase of tuition fees, higher work flexibility, lower wages and pensions, etc.). These young people started mobilising in the climate movement, then they stood up against genocide in Palestine, and they continue their political involvement in today's social mobilisations. It's impressive. Many people from he civil society (justice, democratic rights, climate protection...) were also present, As well as artists, who are particularly hard hit by pension measures.

There was strong unity between the country's three regions and between the public and private sectors. The number of French speakers was slightly higher due to fresh attacks on the French community, but the mobilisation was huge in all three parts of the country.

What are the core reasons people took to the streets?

Benjamin Pestieau. There are very specific reasons and there are very general ones. On a general level, there's a global discontent among people who are fed up with not being respected as workers. They are tired of dealing with a lack of recognition for the difficulty of their careers and their daily contribution to society. Workers are despised by high-wage politicians who want to take away their bonuses, make them work longer, with more flexibility, and then these politicians accuse them of living beyond their means. Traditional politicians seem to forget that it's the working class that runs society. Not them. Bart De Wever (Prime Minister, N-VA, right-wing Flemish nationalist) and Georges-Louis Bouchez (President of the MR, right-wing liberal) promoted the myth that working hard would finally be rewarded, but this crumbles when faced with reality: on the contrary, work is more precarious and less remunerated than ever.

How about the specific reasons people took to the streets?

Benjamin Pestieau. People refuse to work until they are 67. They want to deprive people of their right to rest after a long career. That is not acceptable. This is outright theft of their best years, theft of their pension. This fight about working hours is a marker of the historical combat about working time, between the working class and the capitalists. Throughout the history of capitalism, this struggle has been organised on a few levels: on a daily basis with the eight-hour day, on a weekly basis with the five-day week - and now, increasingly, the 4-day week - on a yearly basis the fight was about paid vacations, and on a career basis about the right to enjoy a few years' rest in more or less good health after a long career.

This battle between capital and labour today focuses on the final part of people's carreers. The working class defends this right to rest, because it's impossible to work until 67. People can feel it and they speak up for it. It's this right to rest that the capitalists and the government want to steal. According to them, the purpose of our life should be to work and generate profit, whereas for the labour movement, we work to enjoy life and improve our well-being.

You and Kim De Witte, the PVDA-PTB's pension specialist, even talk about "pension theft"...

Benjamin Pestieau. Indeed, Kim De Witte develops this idea very well in his latest book, "Work, shut up and die". People feel they are being robbed of the rights they have collectively built up. The working class won the right to a pension not by asking politely, but by taking it. It's not a favor that has been granted, it's a right that they have built up through their carreers. They demanded that part of their work be paid for in form of a pension at the end of their professional life. This is known as deferred compensation. Part of the salary is paid at another time in your life, like when you are retired. Now politicians and capitalists want to steal this deferred compensation. To do what? To buy new F-35s, missiles and give more gifts to the rich.

We saw many people carrying signs to "tax the rich" at the demonstration. Is tax justice also a central demand of the current social movement?

Benjamin Pestieau. Absolutely. People are fed up with the fact that the government always looks for money in their pockets (through wages or public services) and that billionaires are spared. It is a great political taboo To really make the ultra-rich pay, and more and more people want to lift this taboo.

What other things activates people to take the streets?

Benjamin Pestieau. So many different themes. Palestine activists were on hand to denounce Belgium's complicity in Israel's genocide. The non-profit sector was mobilised against disinvestment in the hospital sector. The feminist movement attended, claming this government is one of the most anti-women in recent years. Organisations for the defense of democratic rights demonstrated against threats to ban the right to mobilise (see below). A cross-cutting theme was the militarisation of our society and the economy, linking the purchase of F-35s to the defunding of public services. In fact, the demonstrators denounced Arizona's entire social project.

And what is that social project behind Arizona's austerity programme?

Benjamin Pestieau. It's about cutting budgets for two main reasons. Firstly, to further militarise society and invest massively in weapons - the only budget that is exploding - while showing contempt for the soldiers, whose pensions are under attack. The other reason the government is cutting budgets is to increase the transfer from our wages to shareholders' profits, a transfer that has been going on for over 10 years. The working class produces a lot of wealth every year, by working hard. This wealth is like a giant pie. We are all baking it, we take care of those who decorate it, and we train the pastry chefs of tomorrow. And the entire working class who bakes this pie, is suddenly aware that their part of it, is being given to sustain the profits of big business and the ultra-rich. This government is truly at the service of militarisation and the super-rich. Bouchez and De Wever's government also wants a society that silences the opposition with anti-democratic laws. It's a divisive project that attempts to pit workers against each other: healthy versus sick, young versus old, employed versus unemployed, documented versus undocumented... It also means submission to NATO's war policy and complicity with Israel. This is Arizona's society: destroying all the social and democratic achievements of the workers' movement.

A 140,000-strong demonstration can't be improvised. This was the twelfth national appointment to resist the Arizona plans. Is it going crescendo?

Benjamin Pestieau. The anger grows and grows. We need a long-term plan, there will be some very strong moments and others less so. We've just had a 140,000-strong demonstration, but we've also seen smaller mobilisations. And that's normal. A social movement is not linear, it doesn't just get bigger all the time.

Right now, we are clearly in a moment of escalation with this demonstration and the announcement of a national week of action from November 24, including strikes in public transport (November 24), public services (November 25), and a general cross-industry strike on November 26. This shows a level of mobilisation and determination rarely seen. This is a long-term movement.

The PVDA- PTB was also very mobilised. What role did it play in making this movement so broad and profound?

Benjamin Pestieau. For the PVDA-PTB, social history is first and foremost about mobilisation. The capitalists have their own media, their parties, their networks, their pressure groups and their "specialists". It is crucial that we build a working class counterpower around different branches, bringing together the trade unions, civil society, media, intellectuals and politics. The PVDA-PTB has played its part in building this counterpower. By mobilising, by raising awareness and giving a voice to the political debate in support of the movement. The vast majority of PVDA-PTB militants were present on October 14th, but they mainly worked to mobilise their families, friends and colleagues, to support union action and take part in debates... The Party leadership is in awe of all the grassroots militants who are doing an incredible job.

Have you seen any tangible results?

Benjamin Pestieau. Yes. The fact that the government is so reluctant to implement its program is directly linked to growing social pressure. They are experiencing difficulties in several areas, two of which are drawing up the budget and trying to reach an agreement on the pension reforms. Thanks to social mobilisation, the pension penalty (malus-pension) has already been postponed by at least five months. Another example: they have had to make concessions on the assimilation of sickness and parental leave, which will be taken into account in the penalty.

At the same time, as you briefly mentioned, the government is preparing a freedom-restricting law to stifle the resistance. Can you explain this decline in democratic rights?

Benjamin Pestieau. The anti-social offensive is always coupled with an anti-democratic offensive. When capital attacks social rights, it simultaneously tries to break resistance by rolling back democratic rights. The Quintin law, named after the Minister of the Interior, was part of a strategy of division and repression. It would make it possible to ban organisations in the name of anti-terrorism, not by a judge's decision or on the basis of acts committed, but on the basis of intentions or a report of being dangerous. They would only need the decision to be made by three MPs. This is extremely dangerous, as it gives a huge political power to Mps to define what the legitimate scope of action of a party or trade union is. Associations, trade unions, Amnesty International, the League of Human Rights, Greenpeace, etc. are all mobilised.

You remain optimistic. Is it possible to win in this context?

Benjamin Pestieau. Of course. Optimism is crucial, because pessimism is a political stance that appeals to the opposite camp, because it guarantees that they can continue to take anti-social measures. Our optimism isn't naïve, but it's the optimism of the struggle that's always looking for ways forward. The main source of optimism is that increasingly broad strata of society, notably the young people who are rising up today, are deciding to be actors in their own liberation rather than spectators. The government only wants us to stay pessimist and quiet.

Over the last twelve months, we've seen more and more people deciding to take action and not simply let things happen to them. This is the definition of an emancipatory movement: you become the actor of your own liberation, of your own will to have a better future, and not just a spectator. And that's an incredibly important source of optimism.

Let's get involved, let's mobilise, let's be actors, because those on the other side of the fence, the political parties, the business world, only want one thing: that we remain spectators of our lives, pessimist and withdrawn.

What are the conditions for a future victory?

Benjamin Pestieau. If we remain mobilised and united in our diversity, like we were on October 14. Another important element is that every day the protest grows and we must organise a little more. In trade unions - it's important that workers who aren't members yet, to unionise, it's a goal for the coming months and years -, in associations, in your neighbourhood or elsewhere. And, of course, in the best party in the country, the PVDA-PTB! I invite all those who are fed up with Arizona, who want oxygen, who want to organise to fight and who aspire to a change in society, to join and strengthen the PVDA-PTB.

We need to be mobilised, organised and raising awareness. The ongoing battle of ideas, doesn't take a break, that's obvious from the assessment of the demonstration. The other side will always try to divide us, to disguise their measures to make us believe that there is no alternative or that they are not as bad as all that. The other side will always try to increase oppression.

It's important to remember that it's not always going to be a smooth ride. We've all had discussions at family dinners, with colleagues or friends, where we've had trouble convincing people because the debate is tense, because we're going against the grain of a political and media apparatus on the side of the government... Sometimes we convince people easily, sometimes we encounter greater difficulties. But in this whole process of raising awareness, it's important to be organised. Because the fact that we're a collective, means that we can exchange ideas, that we're not alone, and that we can share our best and worst practices.

If we are more organised, if we continue to raise awareness and if we remain mobilised, we can win victories. That's our promise and our commitment.